Roe v. Wade 35th Anniversary
Posted By Sika on January 22, 2008
*And, funny enough, the news just keeps getting worse. Please read this book review from salon.com and while you’re there, since you’ve watched the ad, look at this article, too where people talk about how the recent spate of laws giving the fetus separate rights from the mother (ostensibly to make it easier to sentence someone who kills a pregnant woman more harshly, but that isn’t necessary because it can be done without giving the fetus rights and anyway, the language of those new laws is purposefully vague so that it can be applied to other situations as well) means that if Roe v. Wade falls (I know a lot of people say it won’t but the process has been furthered quite far with the combination of nearly 90% of U.S. counties not having an abortion provider and the recent Supreme Court ruling about D & Es being illegal with no provision for the health of the mother), women who get abortions can be prosecuted for murder.
I know many people who have had abortions, and none of them fit the profile that the religious right wants you to believe is the person who gets abortions. I wish people knew that when they hear the religious right talking points and think “well, my abortion was justified, but most of those sluts are using abortion as contraception.” Or, “I will never be in that situation.” 40% of American women have had abortions. Those numbers will not go down much if it’s illegal–the numbers of maternal deaths will skyrocket. We know what will happen because history tells us what happened before.
I wish people realized that the people pushing for abortion restrictions can’t be coming from a humanist perspective. If they were, they wouldn’t push abstinence-only sex education, which doesn’t work. They wouldn’t try to block the HPV vaccine from being available to anyone because women who have extramarital sex should get HPV and cervical cancer as punishment for their sluttiness. They wouldn’t say that women shouldn’t be able to make medical decisions for themselves because they might regret it later (Oh Justice Kennedy, I thought I knew ye). Laws that come from such a place of contempt, paternalism, and at times, hatred for women cannot have a good outcome, even if you agree that abortion should be rare, or nonexistent.
If you think abortion should be illegal, tell me this: What kind of a prison sentence should a woman who has an abortion get?
*Unfortunately, I feel my language is a little strong and the topic is too sensitive where I am now for me to leave this post unlocked, which is what I’d rather do. But out of respect for my host country and a healthy dose of trepidation/paranoia regarding my current employer, I’m locking this post.
Supplementary question: What sort of prison sentence should a man get for masturbation?
That was a nicely persuasive post, firm but not insulting. Nice! It’s a shame you have to lock it down but its not like its your only opportuinity to speak out.
I have some smidge of sympathy for anti-abortion sentaments. Some of those folks are good people that simply beleive in a wierd kind of metaphysical truth that says zygotes are people and once you beleive that it makse sense to want to protect them. But as you point out a great many of them are deeply hypocritical and at heart are simply deeply embarased by thier sexuality.
I am repelled by stories of women late in term who get scared and have procrastinated up untill that point and then at then get an abbortion. I can understand but if you let a fetus grow it becomes more and more human every day. There comes a time when in nearly anyones heart when it begins to feel like butchery.
I don’t think that is the common case though. The morning after bill is as close to murder as Brett’s insightfull example. Women have a right to determine if they have a child or not and a zygote, fertalized or otherwise is not a person by any measure that makes sense to me.
When I debate with pro lifer’s they demand I tell them where the magic line is from child to not child and I try to explain to them it is a personal judgement. One of the most difficult fundamental decisions each person can try to make. What does it mean to be a person?
I wonder if we can ever come to a kind of compramize without each side pushig for an absolute.
You present a valuable argument to the issues. I have to agree whole heartedly that “Laws that come from such a place of contempt, paternalism, and at times, hatred for women cannot have a good outcome”.
There are cultures that have no problem killing their children because they don’t follow their bible, or they’re the wrong sex, etc. And life is not that valuable if you put it in that perspective. So, I think it’s a matter of the value of the society you are in.
I’ll openly admit that two abortions later I still feel like a murderer. Whatever justification helps me sleep better for that choice doesn’t change that in my book. Would I do it again, probably. Some days you make that decision and you live with it but it doesn’t change the facts: no zygote=no Sarah, stupidly simple scientifically sound math without the religious or philosophical mind fuck. Ya just aren’t born unless you were once a zygote. Should I go to jail for taking those potential lives? Well, I guess that’s not totally up to me. I don’t just answer to the temple of Sarah.
Someone had to protect sexual rights at some point, because right now according to federal law my 14 yr old could have babies, abortions, STDs, or could even be dying of AIDS without any doctor being able to tell me that. That could be Raven or Chavez. Real kids who aren’t in danger and have no reason to lie, but legally can if they don’t want to be bothered with being lectured or grounded. This society is already raising my kids for me. I guess I’m not surprised that they want to start doing it from 24-48 hours after I conceive them. heh. Obviously we don’t have clear boundaries in our society.
-Sarah
“I’ll openly admit that two abortions later I still feel like a murderer.”
I don’t think I’ve ever asked you this: If I know you, I know that if your kids were in danger, you’d definitely sacrifice your life for theirs. You’d take some other people out doing it too. So, to you, what’s the difference? I’m not trying to negate the difficulty of the decisions you have made, I just don’t think I’ve ever asked you what the difference is to you.
“Ya just aren’t born unless you were once a zygote”
You also aren’t born unless you were once an egg and a sperm, which brings us to wakko’s point above–that masturbation is murder. But you know that I don’t think that humanness is automatically conferred with fertilization or implantation.
“14 yr old could have babies, abortions, STDs, or could even be dying of AIDS without any doctor being able to tell me that”
I really think that’s a moot point, because even *bad* doctors, if your kid was dying or had AIDS would work on getting your kid to enlist you as support. There are people who’s whole job in the hospital is to get support systems up and running. And that includes parents.
Whenever I think about teen consent laws I think of the case that got a lot of them (the good ones) on the books. This girl was in a state where she needed parental consent or a judicial override. Her parents were awesome or at the very least, good, and so she knew she wasn’t going to get judicial override. But she was scared to tell her parents. So she tried to do the abortion herself, and she died (after which her parents started campaigning all over the country to end parental notification laws because they would’ve rather not known she had an abortion and have her alive). Which brings me back to the point above: Everything I’ve seen, everything I’ve heard, in every country I’ve been to–no matter how religious the people/country or how illegal abortion is–is that abortion happens no matter what the laws are. The only difference is that when it’s illegal more women die.
You are the only person who uses this account consistently, so I almost feel like I should assume any comments are from you and everybody *else* has to sign their name
“I don’t think I’ve ever asked you this: If I know you, I know that if your kids were in danger, you’d definitely sacrifice your life for theirs. You’d take some other people out doing it too. So, to you, what’s the difference? I’m not trying to negate the difficulty of the decisions you have made, I just don’t think I’ve ever asked you what the difference is to you.” To me, murder is murder. You can justify it to help you sleep at night. That doesn’t make it less important.
“You also aren’t born unless you were once an egg and a sperm, which brings us to wakko’s point above–that masturbation is murder. But you know that I don’t think that humanness is automatically conferred with fertilization or implantation.” The point is that the logic is also there for believing that human life starts at the zygote stage, beyond what a religion may offer. The stance against masturbation is almost always religious. It’s not a matter of Right Wing blah blah blah to everyone. Sometimes it’s just a reasonable view point to at least negotiate with and respect.
“I really think that’s a moot point, because even *bad* doctors, if your kid was dying or had AIDS would work on getting your kid to enlist you as support. There are people who’s whole job in the hospital is to get support systems up and running. And that includes parents.
Whenever I think about teen consent laws I think of the case that got a lot of them (the good ones) on the books. This girl was in a state where she needed parental consent or a judicial override. Her parents were awesome or at the very least, good, and so she knew she wasn’t going to get judicial override. But she was scared to tell her parents. So she tried to do the abortion herself, and she died (after which her parents started campaigning all over the country to end parental notification laws because they would’ve rather not known she had an abortion and have her alive). Which brings me back to the point above: Everything I’ve seen, everything I’ve heard, in every country I’ve been to–no matter how religious the people/country or how illegal abortion is–is that abortion happens no matter what the laws are. The only difference is that when it’s illegal more women die.”
My point about the teen laws is that the law already steps over boundaries of parents, so of course it’s easy to give or take rights from pregnant women if they can take them from women whose children are already born.
I get that people will try to kill themselves to prevent from having babies. People try to kill themselves when they are depressed too, and for the most part that’s still illegal. I don’t think that “women will die to make it happen” argument is a rational one to make laws by. Which doesn’t mean there aren’t other arguments I think are more rational.